[Cat] Do you hitcap?

Topics: Rawr.Cat
Jun 23, 2010 at 8:24 AM
Edited Jun 23, 2010 at 8:25 AM

Rawr has said to avoid exper/hit caps for a long time now and I often still do go for these caps.  It makes the rotation tighter and gives me a bit more free brain power as I am also the raid leader.

My question though is what do you do?  Do you still hit/exper cap or do you just go pure ArP/AGI and take whatever you get on your gear?

edit: spel gud

Coordinator
Jun 23, 2010 at 9:22 AM

I rarely go Cat anymore, but Gwin's full cat, and he just optImizes for DPS with an additional requirement of Chance to be Avoided % < {some arbitrary amount that he feels isn't 'too' much}. I think he uses like 0.6% or 1% or something. He's raid leading, so wants a mostly consistent cycle, so he doesn't have to pay too much attention to it. For the most part, it comes down to gearing for hit, not going over the hit cap, but not gemming/enchanting for it.

Jun 23, 2010 at 4:11 PM

Interesting, I've always had the reverse experience: gemming hit and hit/exper always gets me higher DPS values in Rawr than picking gear with it and gemming arp.

Thanks for the reply!  I'll keep going for cap :).

Jun 23, 2010 at 4:34 PM
As I recall, capping for cats just doesn't do that much for us [compared to other classes]. Most DPS classes [Paladin, Warlock, Hunter, Rogue from personal experience] have an ability that is on cooldowns that makes a huge difference in DPS if it misses; for example, Ret judging [misses mean no mana], Warlock Haunt or Conflagarate, Hunter Black Arrow, Rogues I can't recall off the top of my head. Cats don't [unless one has been added? I haven't done much cat since 3.3] - which means that if they miss or are dodged, they just recast their spell immediately. As for consistent cycle, I never really saw any sort of consistency in cat DPS - between the variances in special ability cooldowns and OOC procs, cat DPS was always the most confusing [which is why I ran with FBN suggestions, but not for example Faceroll:Affliction].
Coordinator
Jun 23, 2010 at 6:10 PM
Correct. Cats missing a yellow attack just cost a meager part of the attack's energy cost (I think it's 20%), potentially a GCD of debuff uptime, and a GCD. We're not GCD locked, so miss just affects white damage mostly. The most significant cost of missing is probably that you have to pay more attention to your rotation, and actually recast the same ability next. It adds a very significant chance for you to 'screw up' your rotation.
Jun 23, 2010 at 7:01 PM

There's a difficult to model "house of cards falling down" effect from too many misses as well.  Sometimes a couple misses at the wrong time followed by an unlucky no crit streak (especially after you did a bite) can leave you with rip down quite some time as SR is falling off, you have no energy, and you can't get combo points to save your life.

 

Coordinator
Jun 23, 2010 at 7:37 PM
Right. It's very rare, but possible. That's alot of why Gwin aims for 'some, but not too much' miss.
Jun 23, 2010 at 8:46 PM

My DPS went up by quite a bit when I dropped the Hit/Exp caps and went fully with the Rawr suggestion.
The cycle breaking is indeed quite an annoyance at times, but on the other hand if everything that does hit hits hard enough to compensate it doesn't matter in the end.

Jun 23, 2010 at 10:01 PM
Fes wrote:

My DPS went up by quite a bit when I dropped the Hit/Exp caps and went fully with the Rawr suggestion.
The cycle breaking is indeed quite an annoyance at times, but on the other hand if everything that does hit hits hard enough to compensate it doesn't matter in the end.

Did it?  Rawr seems to say I lose like 50-100 DPS out of  ~14000.  It's SEEMS a trivial amount.  But I've always wondered what it would be like to switch...if I would "feel" the difference.

Coordinator
Jun 23, 2010 at 10:02 PM

You'd feel the 20k shreds (or whatever number is impressive at your gear level)

Jun 23, 2010 at 10:41 PM
khanthal wrote:
Fes wrote:

My DPS went up by quite a bit when I dropped the Hit/Exp caps and went fully with the Rawr suggestion.
The cycle breaking is indeed quite an annoyance at times, but on the other hand if everything that does hit hits hard enough to compensate it doesn't matter in the end.

Did it?  Rawr seems to say I lose like 50-100 DPS out of  ~14000.  It's SEEMS a trivial amount.  But I've always wondered what it would be like to switch...if I would "feel" the difference.

I checked how much I'd lose and it comes out at 16657 (in Rawr), down from 17071 (25% buff included), which seems quite significant.
It's been some time since I switched off the caps so don't know what my actual DPS would be with them.

You'd definitely feel the difference, having to get used to have to Rake or Rip 2, 3, sometimes even 4 times in a row is not something you easily miss :)
I play with 91 Hit and 92 Exp btw, leaving me with 6.42% avoided attacks.

Jun 23, 2010 at 11:28 PM

I haven't been modeling cat with the buff...it seemed like a flat 25% across the board wouldn't really impact anything in any meaningful way.

 

Editor
Jun 23, 2010 at 11:44 PM

For you, maybe not.  But it's huge for a Warrior, for example, as it affects our rage generation.  Even as a cat, I'd still factor it in, as it's a factor in accurately representing your raiding situation.

Developer
Jun 25, 2010 at 9:13 AM

Also note that hit can become an important factor in dps when you're getting to the high 60%+ crit amounts.  Without the hit% and expertise%, you'll just be wasting crit% as well.  Not sure if cats get in that ballpark though, but the principle is verymuch an issue for dualwielders like rogues where a lack of hit and expertise also curbs the amount of effective crit you can get.

I'm not sure if rawr.rogue or rawr.cat properly handle the glancing blow and crit cap calculations.  Rawr.ret doesn't, mainly because it doesn't have to being a 2hander only, ret isn't going to get even close to the cap.

Jun 25, 2010 at 9:33 AM

Rawr.Rogue takes the Hit cap for Crit into account. I thought Cat does it as well, but if not I might need to change my gear a bit as I'm Crit capped.

Coordinator
Jun 25, 2010 at 5:08 PM

Rawr.Cat does. (If you can reproduce some way it doesn't, I'd want to see it)