Gemming Templates

Topics: Rawr.Base
Oct 12, 2009 at 4:53 AM

Is there no possible option for going through and setting up custom gemmings and making them available to future versions?  I saw something on the help page, but it didn't say where the option is.  I manually went through the Gemming Template XML file and fixed them there, but when I went to load Rawr it came back and said it was created with an old version and overwriting with the new.  I am using the latest v2.2.21 version.

Coordinator
Oct 12, 2009 at 4:58 AM

Err... Tools > Edit Gemming Templates? Is that what you're looking for? o.O

Oct 12, 2009 at 3:29 PM

That is where I thought the feature I needed would be, but it isn't.  I found the below quote from the website help page.

http://rawr.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?title=Gemmings&referringTitle=Home

Please remember that these custom gemmings are intended to be used for abnormal exceptions; if you find yourself regularly using Custom Gemmings, you probably should just add a new Gemming Template.

When I go to that page it has the standard gems for a Protection Paladin and I can see where I can make custom gemmings.  This would be ok if I didn't want to go through and enter 7 Different Red Gem Combinations, 7 Different Yellow Gem Combinations and 7 Different blue Gem Combinations.  The Meta Gem and Prismatic stay the same everytime.  I like to go through and set it up with all these different combinations to get a broader view at it and see what might be better in situations, as it has made me look at some combinations differently.  I'd like to be able to do the same to a few other classes.

My thing with this is though if I do it in the v2.2.21 version I'll have to do it all over again in the next version and so on.  Everytime I go to either copy/paste the old one or manually edit the file (using same format) I get an error that says it was done with a previous version and it was updating it with the current version stored in the program.

 

Developer
Oct 12, 2009 at 3:33 PM

With such a large number you want to stop using the Gemming Templates and start using the Gems themselves. Go to the Comparison charts and switch to Gems > Normal, then Gems > Meta and select each Gem you would want to use, the Optimizer will then determine the best gems to use in which slots.

Oct 12, 2009 at 3:41 PM

Jothay wrote:

With such a large number you want to stop using the Gemming Templates and start using the Gems themselves. Go to the Comparison charts and switch to Gems > Normal, then Gems > Meta and select each Gem you would want to use, the Optimizer will then determine the best gems to use in which slots.

So if I go to those pages and "check" the diamond next to them the optimizer will automatically pick up those gems as being ones I'd like to be considered for that class?  I'ver never gotten the optimizer to run correctly and I've only use the standard one where you break it down by Head, Shoulders and such and figure from there.  Everytime I use the Tools -> Optimize I get weird results that do not make any sense.  Like say a 90 stamina trinket would be better than a 120 stamina trinket with the same effect on both for surivival.  Doesn't make much sense, but then again I'm sure not everything is finalized for each module or I'm just plain screwing it up ;).

Oct 12, 2009 at 3:47 PM

I am having a similar problem.  Except I have checked the gems I want to us, and checked some gear as unavailable to regem, blue diamond, but when I run the optimizer the blue diamond gear still gets regemmed.  I have run it with the override regem box check and unchecked and get the same results.

Developer
Oct 12, 2009 at 4:05 PM

Darg: You need to set Show Gemming Templates to more than just one, then look for that item possibly being available with other gemmings. Setting a single blue one doesn't mean there aren't possibly others available to the optimizer.

Luce: If you are getting 90 showing better than a 120 after optimize you probably didn't mark the 120 as available to the optimizer. And if you did mark it, and it is literally the 90 but with better stats (eg 5 stam 10 str going to 10 stam 20 str) you need to UNMARK the lesser item as you would never have a reason to choose that one.

Oct 12, 2009 at 4:29 PM
Jothay wrote:

Luce: If you are getting 90 showing better than a 120 after optimize you probably didn't mark the 120 as available to the optimizer. And if you did mark it, and it is literally the 90 but with better stats (eg 5 stam 10 str going to 10 stam 20 str) you need to UNMARK the lesser item as you would never have a reason to choose that one.

I will double check this, but I know both items are always check marked.  It seems also when I run the mitigation, survival, and one other optimizers seperately all with Defense being >540 (or equal to) I get defense ratings between 530-575.

Developer
Oct 12, 2009 at 4:41 PM

Let me guess, when you do that it tells you "not all of the optimizer requirements could be met". If it does then you are setting the requirements too stringently. Generally, you don't need to specify a whole bunch of requirements, just the >540 def would be a start then leave the rest alone and see what happens.

Oct 12, 2009 at 4:44 PM
Jothay wrote:

Let me guess, when you do that it tells you "not all of the optimizer requirements could be met". If it does then you are setting the requirements too stringently. Generally, you don't need to specify a whole bunch of requirements, just the >540 def would be a start then leave the rest alone and see what happens.

I get that error, but not exactly how you are thinking.  I get it when Defense is the only thing to optimize for as I thought I was doing something wrong so I set it to just that.  I've tried each setting manually and it does it.  I've also had 50% of the time it show gear in every slot and another 50% showing gear in half the slots.  I'm rereading the Help Page to see if there's something I missed, but so far the same. =(

 

Developer
Oct 12, 2009 at 4:48 PM

Do you not have enough actual Defense gear to support having >540 Defense?

The sometimes gear in half the slots vs sometimes all is intentional. The ones that don't show anything means that gear-slot didn't change, it's keeping the original.

Oct 12, 2009 at 4:59 PM
Jothay wrote:

Do you not have enough actual Defense gear to support having >540 Defense?

The sometimes gear in half the slots vs sometimes all is intentional. The ones that don't show anything means that gear-slot didn't change, it's keeping the original.

The different times I've been in it I have had 540, 555, 565 defense (as they were all different sets of gear at times).

 

Developer
Oct 12, 2009 at 5:41 PM

That's just weird, open an issue and post your cahracter file in it.

Oct 12, 2009 at 7:58 PM
Jothay wrote:

Darg: You need to set Show Gemming Templates to more than just one, then look for that item possibly being available with other gemmings. Setting a single blue one doesn't mean there aren't possibly others available to the optimizer.

I have RAWR set to show the top 3 gemming for items.  I did find a way around it though.  Equip the item I want unmodified, then make sure all diamonds are white, then set the equipped gemming to blue.  If I did marked blue and then turned the green ones off it would still pop up with regemmed items.  Kind of a odd way to work around it but at least it works for me now.

Also on a side note on the next version of the protpaladin file can we get some better gemming templates.  Straight blues may get you the most health but does not help out with avoidance fights.  And str/stam gems might be only useful for a threat set but I have yet needed to worry about threat, and think most other Paladins are in the same boat.

Oct 12, 2009 at 8:57 PM
Dargnash wrote:

I have RAWR set to show the top 3 gemming for items.  I did find a way around it though.  Equip the item I want unmodified, then make sure all diamonds are white, then set the equipped gemming to blue.  If I did marked blue and then turned the green ones off it would still pop up with regemmed items.  Kind of a odd way to work around it but at least it works for me now.

Also on a side note on the next version of the protpaladin file can we get some better gemming templates.  Straight blues may get you the most health but does not help out with avoidance fights.  And str/stam gems might be only useful for a threat set but I have yet needed to worry about threat, and think most other Paladins are in the same boat.

I would agree Dargnash.  While mine may be overkill, I have mine set to the following that way it can put into checks the various hit caps and expertise caps. The below is what I was putting into the Gemming Template.  As you can see coming up with every combination for those take forever and something I do not want to do in ever version.  This is why I was hoping there was another way I could input them so they would show in the charts to the right.  I usually look at that chart to see the differences amongst pieces and toy around with them there.  Yes, I know this is definitely overkill, but the more options you have to look at the better you are with different things.  While the standard gemming of X in red, Y in yellow and Z in blue works why not toy around with different combinations and see if the results might be better?  Also helps to keep things close to the caps to help out.  While I'm not asking for all of these to be put in, a couple more combinations would be nice.

Red Gems
Delicate Cardinal Ruby (Red) -- Dodge / Armor
Subtle Cardinal Ruby (Red) -- Dodge
Defender's Dreadstone (Purple) -- Health / Parry
Guardian's Dreadstone (Purple) -- Health / Expertise
Regal Dreadstone (Purple) -- Health / Dodge
Shifting Dreadstone (Purple) -- Health / Dodge / Armor
Sovereign Dreadstone (Purple) -- Health / Block Value / Attack Power / Spell Power
Accurate Ametrine (Orange) -- Hit / Expertise
Champion's Ametrine (Orange) -- Defense / Block Value / Attack Power / Spell Power
Etched Ametrine (Orange) -- Hit / Block Value / Attack Power / Spell Power
Glimmering Ametrine (Orange) -- Parry / Defense
Glinting Ametrine (Orange) -- Dodge / Armor / Hit
Resolute Ametrine (Orange) -- Expertise / Defense
Stalwart Ametrine (Orange) -- Dodge / Defense


Yellow Gems
Rigid King's Amber (Yellow) -- Hit Rating
Thick King's Amber (Yellow) -- Defense
Accurate Ametrine (Orange) -- Hit / Expertise
Champion's Ametrine (Orange) -- Defense / Block Value / Attack Power / Spell Power
Etched Ametrine (Orange) -- Hit / Block Value / Attack Power / Spell Power
Glimmering Ametrine (Orange) -- Parry / Defense
Glinting Ametrine (Orange) -- Dodge / Armor / Hit
Resolute Ametrine (Orange) -- Expertise / Defense
Stalwart Ametrine (Orange) -- Dodge / Defense
Enduring Eye of Zul (Green) -- Defense / Health
Vivid Eye of Zul (Green) -- Hit / Health


Blue Gems
Solid Majestic Zircon -- Health
Defender's Dreadstone (Purple) -- Health / Parry
Guardian's Dreadstone (Purple) -- Health / Expertise
Regal Dreadstone (Purple) -- Health / Dodge
Shifting Dreadstone (Purple) -- Health / Dodge / Armor
Sovereign Dreadstone (Purple) -- Health / Block Value / Attack Power / Spell Power
Enduring Eye of Zul (Green) -- Defense / Health
Vivid Eye of Zul (Green) -- Hit / Health

Coordinator
Oct 12, 2009 at 10:35 PM

Errrr.... No. That's not what gemming templates are for. That's what the Optimizer is for. There's no way you want all those for Gemming Templates. You should have something like 5-15 active gemming templates. They only need to cover 99% of situations, the Optimizer is for the whole 100%. Most of those gems may be used, but not even remotely close to every combination.

Generally, ou should go about gemming templates like this: What are the stats you care about for each color. Then for each stat, make a gemming template focusing on that stat, for each possible stat from the other colors.

Red: Agi, Dodge, Expertise, Parry, Str

Yellow: Hit, Def

Blue: Sta

Combinations
Agi > Hit, Sta
Agi > Def, Sta
Dodge > Hit, Sta
Dodge > Def, Sta
Exp > Hit, Sta
Exp > Def, Sta
Parry > Hit, Sta
Parry > Def, Sta
Str > Hit, Sta
Str > Def, Sta
Hit > Agi, Sta
Hit > Dodge, Sta
Hit > Exp, Sta
Hit > Parry, Sta
Hit > Str, Sta
Def > Agi, Sta
Def > Dodge, Sta
Def > Exp, Sta
Def > Parry, Sta
Def > Str, Sta
Sta > Agi, Hit
Sta > Dodge, Hit
Sta > Exp, Hit
Sta > Parry, Hit
Sta > Str, Hit
Sta > Agi, Def
Sta > Dodge, Def
Sta > Exp, Def
Sta > Parry, Def
Sta > Str, Def

Then take out the ones with conflicting goals (goals meaning survival, threat, mitigation). That leaves you with...

Combinations
Agi > Def, Sta
Dodge > Def, Sta
Exp > Hit, Sta
Parry > Def, Sta
Str > Hit, Sta
Hit > Exp, Sta
Hit > Str, Sta
Def > Agi, Sta
Def > Dodge, Sta
Def > Parry, Sta
Sta > Exp, Hit
Sta > Str, Hit
Sta > Agi, Def
Sta > Dodge, Def
Sta > Parry, Def

Those are the combinations that you want to make gemming templates for. And then finally, add gemming templates for each single stat, ignoring socket colors. That's actually quite alot of gemming templates, and could probably be pared down further, if either Agi or Dodge is always ideal. I'd probably put all 23 of them in by default, but leave the Threat-centric ones in a separate category, disabled by default, since 90% of prot pallies don't have need to consider gemming for threat.

Oct 13, 2009 at 3:06 PM
Astrylian wrote:

Errrr.... No. That's not what gemming templates are for. That's what the Optimizer is for. There's no way you want all those for Gemming Templates. You should have something like 5-15 active gemming templates. They only need to cover 99% of situations, the Optimizer is for the whole 100%. Most of those gems may be used, but not even remotely close to every combination.

Generally, ou should go about gemming templates like this: What are the stats you care about for each color. Then for each stat, make a gemming template focusing on that stat, for each possible stat from the other colors.

Those are the combinations that you want to make gemming templates for. And then finally, add gemming templates for each single stat, ignoring socket colors. That's actually quite alot of gemming templates, and could probably be pared down further, if either Agi or Dodge is always ideal. I'd probably put all 23 of them in by default, but leave the Threat-centric ones in a separate category, disabled by default, since 90% of prot pallies don't have need to consider gemming for threat.

Ideally no, most Protection Paladins won't gem for threat.  Granted here since 3.2.2 I have seen some needing to gem it in order to build up their Spell Power since they relied so much on the Stamina -> Spell Power that they are having issues with threat, especially in situations where the dps pulls a lot.  Also gemming for Strength can be ideal when your build a strict Shield Block set.  Now I don't really gem for it, but the option is there to look at.

I would use the Optimizer more often if it was what I wanted.  The Optimizer does all your gear based on items you set, what I like about the Comparison Chart (First thing you see on the left) is that it shows all the upgrades and breaks each one down.  I like that feature more as I'm able to look at X item see it has Y Stat, but item Z has a slightly higher Y stat but doesn't look like it.  The Optimizer might be great for some people, but its something thats not for me.

Also, I might be missing you but I'm not following what you mean on this "Then take out the ones with conflicting goals (goals meaning survival, threat, mitigation). That leaves you with...", because I don't see why you left out some of the combinations you did other than for the sake of just shortening the list.

Developer
Oct 13, 2009 at 3:58 PM

Although I completely agree with Astrylian that you don't need many templates in order to catch almost all but the outside fringe cases (which can be handled by Custom gemmings) I would say that in looking the ProtPaladin module may have too few GemmingTemplates to cover the various angles.

Right now, the ProtPaladin module has:

                    //Red           Yellow      Blue        Prismatic   Meta
                    { sovereign,    enduring,   solid,      solid,      austere },  // Balanced Threat + Avoidance, Austere
                    { sovereign,    enduring,   solid,      solid,      eternal },  // Balanced Threat + Avoidance, Eternal
                    { solid,        solid,      solid,      solid,      austere },  // Max Stam, Austere
                    { solid,        solid,      solid,      solid,      eternal },  // Max Stam, Eternal

There is really no avoidance gemmings, even partially, without having threat gems as well. That strikes me as a bit odd since it seems strange not to have an avoidance red option to go along with endurings. It also means that the only tri-color matched gemming template involves a threat gem, which may not be needed.

ProtWarr uses:

                    { flashing, flashing,   flashing,   flashing,   austere },  // Max Avoidance (Parry)
                    { subtle,   subtle,     subtle,     subtle,     austere },  // Max Avoidance (Dodge)
                    { flashing, glimmering, defender,   flashing,   austere },  // Avoidance Heavy (Parry)
                    { subtle,   stalwart,   regal,      subtle,     austere },  // Avoidance Heavy (Dodge)
                    { defender, enduring,   solid,      solid,      austere },  // Balanced Avoidance (Parry)
                    { regal,    enduring,   solid,      solid,      austere },  // Balanced Avoidance (Dodge)
                    { guardian, enduring,   solid,      solid,      austere },  // Balanced TPS
                    { solid,    solid,      solid,      solid,      austere },  // Max Health

Although this is potentially slightly overkill (I'm considering removing the pure avoidance ones, as nobody actually gems that way in practice) it does catch some cases that the Paladin module does not.

I would consider adding at least:

                    { defender, enduring,   solid,      solid,      austere },  // Balanced Avoidance (Parry)
                    { regal,    enduring,   solid,      solid,      austere },  // Balanced Avoidance (Dodge)

As those are both very viable gemming templates for any tank to consider. If the eternal meta is viable for Paladins (I know it isn't for Warriors) then obviously those would need to have versions which used that as well. It may also be possible to drop the Parry gemming, however post-3.2 it actually can become a more viable gemming than Dodge due to the new DR curves.

Oct 13, 2009 at 5:43 PM

Yea, I agree that we have too few to begin with.  Too be completely honest I have not opened up the Protection Paladin module.  After looking what you pasted, I can go through rather easily and quickly open the Paladin Module and add in my own custom gemmings that way.  Might have to go through and see if there's any other tweakings I might like, lol.

 

Coordinator
Oct 13, 2009 at 6:23 PM
Lucetia wrote:

Also, I might be missing you but I'm not following what you mean on this "Then take out the ones with conflicting goals (goals meaning survival, threat, mitigation). That leaves you with...", because I don't see why you left out some of the combinations you did other than for the sake of just shortening the list.

I may have made a mistake, but the point of that is to remove ones that are focused on three different goals. Take "Sta > Parry, Hit" for example. The primary goal there is survival, obviously, because you're using stamina as the base. But the secondary goals are conflicting; parry is for mitigation, hit is for threat. So in an item with 1 yellow and 1 red socket, it'd have sta/hit and sta/parry, which is very odd. It's extremely unlikely that you'd gem for both mitigation AND threat in the same item. Sure, it's possible, when you want to be hit capped and are only 8 hit short of the cap, but otherwise want mitigation... But that's in the 1% of cases, that comparison charts are't supposed to cover.

Also, regarding comparison charts vs optimizer... I think you may be missing Upgrade Lists. The Upgrade List is what you're looking for in the comparison chart, but accurate with the gear you have available.

Developer
Oct 13, 2009 at 8:11 PM

An idea, is it possible to have the meta gem selection separated from the gemming templates?  It's only ever used on one slot and should probably be chosen independently of other gems for the helm.

With that said, here's what I'm proposing for the ProtPaladin module:

Survivability:

solid solid solid solid austere

Mitigation (Agility):

delicate delicate delicate delicate eternal
delicate glinting shifting delicate eternal   // WTB agility + defense gem
glinting thick enduring delicate eternal
shifting enduring solid delicate eternal

Mitigation (Dodge):

subtle subtle subtle subtle eternal
subtle stalwart regal subtle eternal
stalwart thick enduring subtle eternal
regal enduring solid subtle eternal

Mitigation (Parry):

flashing flashing flashing flashing eternal
flashing glimmering defender flashing eternal
glimmering thick enduring flashing eternal
defender enduring solid flashing eternal

Threat (disabled by default)

bold bold bold bold eternal
bold champion sovereign bold eternal
champion thick enduring bold eternal
sovereign enduring solid bold eternal

This makes 17 in all.  13 are enabled by default.  I don't include hit (except where I had to in the Mitigation (Agility) section) or expertise.  My thoughts on that are if you want to include these hard-cappable numbers, select them in the gem charts and optimize or build an upgrade list.

I'm also torn on the meta gem for threat.  In a block value set, you're likely going to be Shield of Righteousness capped, and then eternal actually gives a reduction of threat because you gain no benefit from Shield of Righteousness and are dodging/parrying more and thus getting damage from Holy Shield less.

Thoughts either way on this?  Anything need tweaking?

Developer
Oct 13, 2009 at 8:13 PM

Roncli makes a solid point, we have to duplicate a series of templates for multiple Metas when we really wouldn't need to if they were separately selected

Coordinator
Oct 13, 2009 at 8:34 PM

It doesn't actually run calculations for each of those gemming templates for each item, it only does so for each unique combination of gems from the active gemming templates for the sockets on that item. So having 10 gemming templates for each of 5 metagems (50 total) is the same performance as only having 10 gemming templates, for non-helms. I understand that it means you have to copy/paste all the gemming template code once for a second possible meta, but that's not really a big deal, I don't think.

Developer
Oct 13, 2009 at 8:39 PM
Astrylian wrote:

It doesn't actually run calculations for each of those gemming templates for each item, it only does so for each unique combination of gems from the active gemming templates for the sockets on that item. So having 10 gemming templates for each of 5 metagems (50 total) is the same performance as only having 10 gemming templates, for non-helms. I understand that it means you have to copy/paste all the gemming template code once for a second possible meta, but that's not really a big deal, I don't think.

That's actually good to know, I wasn't aware of that. For ProtPaladin (which inherited ProtWarr's code in this regard) and ProtWarr which already just loop over arrays, it would be easy enough to have two arrays--one for the metas and one for the primary templates--and loop over both to produce the result with like.. 3 extra lines of code, for deleting just as many or more, while handling all the combos.

Developer
Oct 13, 2009 at 9:01 PM

nono, our having to add templates in the program wasn't what I was caring about, it's the fact that there's double the number of templates it has to look at for items when optimizing. I think Astry qualmed that query by stating that non-helm items don't see that perf hit so it's less of a problem than I thought it was.

Coordinator
Oct 13, 2009 at 9:14 PM

Not just helms either. It just loops through gemming templates to come up with unique gem combinations. An item with a single socket'll probably only have 3-4 actual unique gems that it has to calculate for.