Elemental Shaman Burst vs Sustained..

Topics: Rawr.Elemental
Nov 5, 2009 at 9:02 AM

I've been using Rawr (Feral + Moonkin) modules for a long time. I recently levelled an Ele/Enh shammie up to 80 and have found myself confused about burst vs. sustained DPS. My understanding is that sustained DPS is mana restrained DPS. I would therefore expect that burst DPS > sustained DPS.

Rawr is telling me that my burst DPS is 2559 and my sustained DPS is 7677 and that my simulation DPS is 5118.

I've only been 80 for a few days and have been rapidly gearing up so I don't have the best sense as to what my real raid DPS is yet. 2.5K seems a bit low and there is no way in hell that I am going to pull 5.1K  or 7.6K DPS in my gear (4K gear score + missing a lot of enchants + a lot of my gear may have a higher score but isn't *good* gear)..

Which of the various #s available should I be believing as my DPS for a fight that I do not run OOM on?

 

 

Nov 5, 2009 at 12:14 PM

The DPS values in Rawr.Elemental have always been too high compared to real game play, because latency and movement are not factored in. Latency will be added in the next release as it is already checked in.

When I look at the numbers you are posting then I suppose, that you are referring to the numbers displayed in the status bar. These are no real dps values, but they represent a weighted score instead. They are weighted by the slider in the options tab. In order to see the real estimated dps values check the information displayed under Simulation in the stats tab. Additionally I think that you did not check all the buffs that you would benefit from in a raid scenario, because otherwise it is close to impossible to run out of mana as an elemental shaman.

Hope that helps.

Nov 6, 2009 at 12:46 AM

I'd like to prefix all of this but once again thanking you and all of the developers of Rawr for making such an incredible tool. My day job involves coding a lot of C# so this is all meant to be questions/constructive criticism :)

Burst vs Sustained Slider

I'm not familiar with the operation of all of the Rawr modules, but I think that the Burst vs Sustained DPS slider/calculations concept is implemented rather differently than in the other modules.

This may be a terrible example (I am still an Elemental noob), but I hope its inaccuracies illustrate a point:

a burst DPS rotation might be: L -> FL -> LvB -> CL -> L -> L ->

if someone was mana constrained, a mana constrained/sustained DPS rotation would be: L -> FL -> LvB -> L -> L -> L ->  (i.e. no chain lightning)

My understanding is that the purpose of these calculations is supposed to give you "simulated" DPS numbers based upon a mana constrained or mana un-constrained rotation.

I'm not sure if the current "slider" actually has any value at all (i.e. are there any use cases that call for it)? In fact, I'd argue that it is actually invalid (i.e. burst vs sustained DPS should be calculated by the system assuming the difference is even relevant).

Burst Numbers vs Simulation Numbers

In the other modules (Moonkin and Feral at least), the Burst/Sustained DPS "score" IS actually your expected DPS. I find it confusing and somewhat inconsistent w/ the rest of the system to implement a separate "simulation" DPS calculation). 

I've read some different thoughts on the Elitist Jerk threads about different rotations involving when/if/etc to use chain lightning. I would propose that the Elemental model should (assuming that you believe that these different rotations are viable enough to address) do the math for the rotations including OOM calculations ("not during fight" if you don't go OOM in the specified fight time in the options). The rotation w/ the highest DPS (which presumably depends on your gear and +haste rating) would be the DPS score that is selected for the "burst". I would assume that if the highest rated DPS rotation causes the person to go OOM during the fight then the system would pick the highest DPS score from a rotation that does not go OOM.

I'd be glad to send you the .XML file for my boomkin if you haven't had a chance to see how this module was implemented. 

Simulation Numbers

I hear what you are saying re: latency/movement and I do understand the impact that they can have on DPS. My buffs may not be perfect, but I do have a reasonable amount (including replenishment selected). I'm going to copy/paste my .XML file at the end of this message for your analysis. I think it is virtually impossible that I could generate 5.1K DPS even under ideal conditions.  While I have a few quality pieces of gear, I'm wearing a fair number of L200 purples and still have a blue trinket and a green shield. Furthermore, a lot of my gear is not that great (i.e. my L245 PvP necklace is really not any better than a fair number of L200 epics). 

I know that I've got a lot to learn re: mastering my new class, but I think I'm much more realistically in the "close to 3K" point for ideal DPS.

OOM

When I mouse over the simulation numbers it tells me I will go OOM after 300 seconds. I noticed that this is the fight length so perhaps this is just a presentation layer issue. FYI - the approach in the moonkin modules is to list a few of the different DPS cycle options and list both their DPS as well as when within the fight or "Not during fight" you will go OOM.

Here is my Elemental's XML file:

 

 

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Character xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">
  <Name>pisomojado</Name>
  <Realm>whisperwind</Realm>
  <Region>US</Region>
  <Race>Draenei</Race>
  <Class>Shaman</Class>
  <ActiveBuffs>Sanctified Retribution</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Swift Retribution</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Arcane Intellect</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Vampiric Touch</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Mana Spring Totem</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Elemental Oath</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Wrath of Air Totem</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Flametongue Totem</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Enhancing Totems (Spell Power)</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Divine Spirit</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Mark of the Wild</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Improved Mark of the Wild</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Blessing of Kings</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Blessing of Kings (Str/Sta Bonus)</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Heroic Presence</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Heart of the Crusader</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Improved Scorch</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Curse of the Elements</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Misery</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Spellpower Elixir</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Potion of Speed</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Fish Feast</ActiveBuffs>
  <CalculationOptions>
    <item>
      <key>
        <string>Bear</string>
      </key>
      <value>
        <string>&lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?&gt;
&lt;CalculationOptionsBear xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"&gt;
  &lt;TargetLevel&gt;83&lt;/TargetLevel&gt;
  &lt;ThreatScale&gt;10&lt;/ThreatScale&gt;
  &lt;TargetArmor&gt;10643&lt;/TargetArmor&gt;
  &lt;SurvivalSoftCap&gt;160000&lt;/SurvivalSoftCap&gt;
  &lt;TargetDamage&gt;65000&lt;/TargetDamage&gt;
  &lt;TargetAttackSpeed&gt;2&lt;/TargetAttackSpeed&gt;
  &lt;TargetParryHastes&gt;true&lt;/TargetParryHastes&gt;
  &lt;CustomUseMaul xsi:nil="true" /&gt;
  &lt;CustomUseMangle&gt;false&lt;/CustomUseMangle&gt;
  &lt;CustomUseSwipe&gt;false&lt;/CustomUseSwipe&gt;
  &lt;CustomUseFaerieFire&gt;false&lt;/CustomUseFaerieFire&gt;
  &lt;CustomUseLacerate&gt;false&lt;/CustomUseLacerate&gt;
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        <string>Elemental</string>
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        <string>&lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?&gt;
&lt;CalculationOptionsElemental xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"&gt;
  &lt;BSRatio&gt;75&lt;/BSRatio&gt;
  &lt;FightDuration&gt;300&lt;/FightDuration&gt;
  &lt;ManaPot&gt;0&lt;/ManaPot&gt;
  &lt;UseThunderstorm&gt;true&lt;/UseThunderstorm&gt;
  &lt;rotationType&gt;0&lt;/rotationType&gt;
&lt;/CalculationOptionsElemental&gt;</string>
      </value>
    </item>
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      <key>
        <string>Enhance</string>
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        <string>&lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?&gt;
&lt;CalculationOptionsEnhance xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"&gt;
  &lt;BossName&gt;Custom&lt;/BossName&gt;
  &lt;TargetLevel&gt;83&lt;/TargetLevel&gt;
  &lt;TargetArmor&gt;10643&lt;/TargetArmor&gt;
  &lt;InBack&gt;true&lt;/InBack&gt;
  &lt;InBackPerc&gt;100&lt;/InBackPerc&gt;
  &lt;AverageLag&gt;250&lt;/AverageLag&gt;
  &lt;MainhandImbue&gt;Windfury&lt;/MainhandImbue&gt;
  &lt;OffhandImbue&gt;Flametongue&lt;/OffhandImbue&gt;
  &lt;FightLength&gt;10&lt;/FightLength&gt;
  &lt;TargetFireResistance&gt;0&lt;/TargetFireResistance&gt;
  &lt;TargetNatureResistance&gt;0&lt;/TargetNatureResistance&gt;
  &lt;Magma&gt;true&lt;/Magma&gt;
  &lt;BaseStatOption&gt;true&lt;/BaseStatOption&gt;
&lt;/CalculationOptionsEnhance&gt;</string>
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  <AvailableItems>45987</AvailableItems>
  <CurrentModel>Elemental</CurrentModel>
  <EnforceMetagemRequirements>true</EnforceMetagemRequirements>
  <PrimaryProfession>Jewelcrafting</PrimaryProfession>
  <SecondaryProfession>Mining</SecondaryProfession>
  <Head>49329.41285.39943.0.0</Head>
  <Neck>42047.0.0.0.0</Neck>
  <Shoulders>47210.0.0.0.0</Shoulders>
  <Back>42069.0.0.0.3825</Back>
  <Chest>47178.39911.0.0.0</Chest>
  <Shirt>23345.0.0.0.0</Shirt>
  <Tabard>43157.0.0.0.0</Tabard>
  <Wrist>47173.0.0.0.0</Wrist>
  <Hands>40509.42156.0.0.3234</Hands>
  <Waist>47669.41502.42144.0.0</Waist>
  <Legs>47228.39956.0.0.0</Legs>
  <Feet>47504.0.0.0.3826</Feet>
  <Finger1>49123.0.0.0.0</Finger1>
  <Finger2>49124.0.0.0.0</Finger2>
  <Trinket1>42395.39911.39936.0.0</Trinket1>
  <Trinket2>47213.0.0.0.0</Trinket2>
  <MainHand>47809.0.0.0.3830</MainHand>
  <OffHand>42860.0.0.0.0</OffHand>
  <Ranged>47666.0.0.0.0</Ranged>
  <CalculationToOptimize>[Overall]</CalculationToOptimize>
  <OptimizationRequirements />
  <WarriorTalents>0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.0000000000000000000000000000000000</WarriorTalents>
  <PaladinTalents>000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.0000000000000000000000000000000000</PaladinTalents>
  <HunterTalents>000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.000000000000000000000000000000000</HunterTalents>
  <RogueTalents>00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.0000000000000000000000000000000000</RogueTalents>
  <PriestTalents>0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.000000000000000000000000000000000</PriestTalents>
  <ShamanTalents>55300015032133513223013510050500310000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.01001000000000000000000010001</ShamanTalents>
  <MageTalents>00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.0000000000000000</MageTalents>
  <WarlockTalents>000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.000000000000000</WarlockTalents>
  <DruidTalents>0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.000000000000000000000000</DruidTalents>
  <DeathKnightTalents>0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.000000000000000000000000000000000</DeathKnightTalents>
  <CustomItemInstances>
    <ItemInstance>
      <Id>42418</Id>
      <Gem1Id>40053</Gem1Id>
      <Gem2Id>39936</Gem2Id>
      <ForceDisplay>true</ForceDisplay>
    </ItemInstance>
  </CustomItemInstances>
  <WaistBlacksmithingSocketEnabled>true</WaistBlacksmithingSocketEnabled>
  <HandsBlacksmithingSocketEnabled>false</HandsBlacksmithingSocketEnabled>
  <WristBlacksmithingSocketEnabled>false</WristBlacksmithingSocketEnabled>
</Character>

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>

<Character xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">

  <Name>pisomojado</Name>

  <Realm>whisperwind</Realm>

  <Region>US</Region>

  <Race>Draenei</Race>

  <Class>Shaman</Class>

  <ActiveBuffs>Sanctified Retribution</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Swift Retribution</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Arcane Intellect</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Vampiric Touch</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Mana Spring Totem</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Elemental Oath</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Wrath of Air Totem</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Flametongue Totem</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Enhancing Totems (Spell Power)</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Divine Spirit</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Mark of the Wild</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Improved Mark of the Wild</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Blessing of Kings</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Blessing of Kings (Str/Sta Bonus)</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Heroic Presence</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Heart of the Crusader</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Improved Scorch</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Curse of the Elements</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Misery</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Spellpower Elixir</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Potion of Speed</ActiveBuffs>

  <ActiveBuffs>Fish Feast</ActiveBuffs>

  <CalculationOptions>

    <item>

      <key>

        <string>Bear</string>

      </key>

      <value>

        <string>&lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?&gt;

&lt;CalculationOptionsBear xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"&gt;

  &lt;TargetLevel&gt;83&lt;/TargetLevel&gt;

  &lt;ThreatScale&gt;10&lt;/ThreatScale&gt;

  &lt;TargetArmor&gt;10643&lt;/TargetArmor&gt;

  &lt;SurvivalSoftCap&gt;160000&lt;/SurvivalSoftCap&gt;

  &lt;TargetDamage&gt;65000&lt;/TargetDamage&gt;

  &lt;TargetAttackSpeed&gt;2&lt;/TargetAttackSpeed&gt;

  &lt;TargetParryHastes&gt;true&lt;/TargetParryHastes&gt;

  &lt;CustomUseMaul xsi:nil="true" /&gt;

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  &lt;FightDuration&gt;300&lt;/FightDuration&gt;

  &lt;ManaPot&gt;0&lt;/ManaPot&gt;

  &lt;UseThunderstorm&gt;true&lt;/UseThunderstorm&gt;

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&lt;/CalculationOptionsElemental&gt;</string>

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    <item>

      <key>

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  &lt;InBackPerc&gt;100&lt;/InBackPerc&gt;

  &lt;AverageLag&gt;250&lt;/AverageLag&gt;

  &lt;MainhandImbue&gt;Windfury&lt;/MainhandImbue&gt;

  &lt;OffhandImbue&gt;Flametongue&lt;/OffhandImbue&gt;

  &lt;FightLength&gt;10&lt;/FightLength&gt;

  &lt;TargetFireResistance&gt;0&lt;/TargetFireResistance&gt;

  &lt;TargetNatureResistance&gt;0&lt;/TargetNatureResistance&gt;

  &lt;Magma&gt;true&lt;/Magma&gt;

  &lt;BaseStatOption&gt;true&lt;/BaseStatOption&gt;

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  <EnforceMetagemRequirements>true</EnforceMetagemRequirements>

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  <SecondaryProfession>Mining</SecondaryProfession>

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  <Neck>42047.0.0.0.0</Neck>

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  <Shirt>23345.0.0.0.0</Shirt>

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  <Waist>47669.41502.42144.0.0</Waist>

  <Legs>47228.39956.0.0.0</Legs>

  <Feet>47504.0.0.0.3826</Feet>

  <Finger1>49123.0.0.0.0</Finger1>

  <Finger2>49124.0.0.0.0</Finger2>

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  <Trinket2>47213.0.0.0.0</Trinket2>

  <MainHand>47809.0.0.0.3830</MainHand>

  <OffHand>42860.0.0.0.0</OffHand>

  <Ranged>47666.0.0.0.0</Ranged>

  <CalculationToOptimize>[Overall]</CalculationToOptimize>

  <OptimizationRequirements />

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  <PaladinTalents>000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.0000000000000000000000000000000000</PaladinTalents>

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  <RogueTalents>00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.0000000000000000000000000000000000</RogueTalents>

  <PriestTalents>0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.000000000000000000000000000000000</PriestTalents>

  <ShamanTalents>55300015032133513223013510050500310000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.01001000000000000000000010001</ShamanTalents>

  <MageTalents>00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.0000000000000000</MageTalents>

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  <DruidTalents>0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.000000000000000000000000</DruidTalents>

  <DeathKnightTalents>0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.000000000000000000000000000000000</DeathKnightTalents>

  <CustomItemInstances>

    <ItemInstance>

      <Id>42418</Id>

      <Gem1Id>40053</Gem1Id>

      <Gem2Id>39936</Gem2Id>

      <ForceDisplay>true</ForceDisplay>

    </ItemInstance>

  </CustomItemInstances>

  <WaistBlacksmithingSocketEnabled>true</WaistBlacksmithingSocketEnabled>

  <HandsBlacksmithingSocketEnabled>false</HandsBlacksmithingSocketEnabled>

  <WristBlacksmithingSocketEnabled>false</WristBlacksmithingSocketEnabled>

</Character>

 

 

 

Nov 6, 2009 at 2:10 AM

There is no real reason to calculate two different rotations for burst or non burst for an elemental shaman. We just lack the spells to vary and adding chain lightning is no big change. A future build will however have the possibility of adding it.

When you don't run out of mana your burst dps is equal to your sustained dps. However the slider gives you the opportunity to weigh them differently in case you would run out of mana. That's why you are presented a score in the status at the bottom. The score is actually something like dps * 2 * weight.

However it's right that the slider itself is not really necessary. I simply could return you the sustained dps.

Coordinator
Nov 6, 2009 at 3:15 AM

One of the things we'll be doing in Rawr3 is standardizing alot of the ratings, and optimizable values, for all the models. That'll include getting rid of the silly "Burst vs Sustained" in several of the DPS models.