New trinket on mmochamp, challenging!

Topics: Rawr.Base.Items
Dec 12, 2009 at 7:09 AM

After they threw out the difficult to model Deathbringer's Will....

Another hard one to model I bet:

http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50351/tiny-abomination-in-a-jar/

I suspect for cat it's going to be terrible.  I could be entirely wrong.  Heroic version is just 7 stacks instead of 8 which is an odd upgrade.

Coordinator
Dec 12, 2009 at 8:05 AM

That one isn't quite as hard. Just 1/16th of an extra auto attack on every melee attack.

Dec 12, 2009 at 8:15 AM

Ah, and 1/14th on the heroic version.  Yeah I guess it's easier than I thought haha.  My gut feeling is that it will only be awesome for folks with large slow two handers but we shall see.

I suppose it will depend a lot on the proc chance.  Maybe DW classes that use a slow MH will get good numbers.  The wording "with one of your melee weapons" is a bit odd.  Maybe for DW folks it can be either weapon.

 

Coordinator
Dec 12, 2009 at 8:21 AM

I'm more curious whether 'melee attacks' (which proc the mote) include specials.

 

Oh, and it's not just 1/16 or 1/14, it's that times whatever the proc rate is.

Dec 12, 2009 at 8:32 AM
Edited Dec 12, 2009 at 8:34 AM

Yellows are a good question yeah. 

It's probably sorta academic if it's modeled as 1/16th dmg at say 10% chance or 1/16*0.10 dmg on every attack...comes out the same.  Though implementation wise it's probably not academic at all :).  Chances are one of those is far easier than the other haha.  And then there is the question of if there is a CD on mote creation...

And if the 50% hit can crit...

 

Editor
Dec 13, 2009 at 12:58 AM

If it acts anything like an Arms Warrior's Sword Specialization, then the rule of thumb is any activated ability that requires melee range can proc this, in addition to plain ol' autoattacking.  Given the similar wording, I'm inclined to believe that this is the case.

Editor
Dec 13, 2009 at 8:25 AM

Some of my musings regarding this trinket, from the Warrior forum on EJ: http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t37462-warrior_dps_calculation_spreadsheet/p86/#post1490286 .

Dec 14, 2009 at 5:37 PM

There's also the question of whether you can get 2 motes at once on, say, a Fury Whirlwind, a swordspec proc, or a dual-wielder's autoattack when both weapons have the same speed.

The biggest pain I have is that all of these trinkets are unique, so they can't be used in a GetAverageStats fashion.  It will slow down our performance needing to check for all these specialized effects.

Editor
Dec 14, 2009 at 11:14 PM

Ignore those musings: deep within the patch notes, it's said that the Normal and Heroic versions are considered Unique-Equipped with each other.  Ebs' points still stand (along with Cleave), and given our recent revisions to the UW and Sword Spec mechanics, I'm inclined to believe that each individual hit will contribute to these procs.

Jan 8, 2010 at 8:42 AM
Edited Jan 8, 2010 at 8:50 AM

Looks like Landsoul from vodka managed to get his hands on the Tiny Abomination in a Jar, his results were as follows:

http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t37462-warrior_dps_calculation_spreadsheet/#post987929

-Fixed [Tiny Abomination in a Jar] to have a 45% proc rate off hits, has yellow hit table but cannot use impale, and has a 50/50 chance to get either a MH or an OH proc.

 

Has any groundwork for this trinket been done in Rawr yet?

Jan 8, 2010 at 9:36 AM

It has also turned up in the enhancement thread (http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t76506-enhancement_patch_3_3_a/p24/#post1515623) where it seems to be doing some unusual things, like proccing maelstorm weapon, flurry, flametongue weapon: functionally white hits.

Jan 8, 2010 at 9:46 AM

So someone tell me if I ballparked this well for cat:

I'm using an all 264 non heroic set to optimize with.  The set is not over crit cap except during DBW agi procs.

My melee swing says it does about "Damage per swing: 2800" on the mouse over.  I assume that takes into account misses and glances and such since it's "per swing".  This makes 1400 per proc or 175 per mote.  I pushed this up to 200 since the trinket uses a yellow table without glances (basically I added ~15% which is highballing it a bit I think).

I made a MeleeHit effect, 0 Dur, 0 ICD, 45% chance that does 200 shadow damage. I couldn't find a physical damage one that worked...but I know shadow damage works.

Rawr says, for me in cat, it's pretty terrible.  I upped the damage amount in stages to see how big it needs to be for the optimizer to put it on.  At about 250 it started using it. 

It seems like this won't be a great feral trinket.  The modeling I am doing is obviously not perfect but it doesn't jump out and scream OMG BIS TRINKET.  I suspect it will be good if you don't have DW or WFS or hDC.

 

Developer
Jan 8, 2010 at 12:14 PM
Edited Jan 8, 2010 at 12:14 PM
Bloodysorc wrote:

It has also turned up in the enhancement thread (http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t76506-enhancement_patch_3_3_a/p24/#post1515623) where it seems to be doing some unusual things, like proccing maelstorm weapon, flurry, flametongue weapon: functionally white hits.

Yes it appears to be giving simple extra attacks and those attacks can and do proc any effects. So its could perhaps be modelled as originally suggested as simply an extra 1/16 or extra 1/14th of an auto attack per second times the proc rate. That boost to auto attacks would then auto figure in proc chances of everything else.

 

Jan 8, 2010 at 2:25 PM

Well, no.  It does 50% of weapon damage, but it should get 100% chance to proc things like poisons, enh shaman abilities, OoC for ferals, and so on.  This is probably a particularly great trinket for ret pallies and enh shamans since they get so many procs per hit. 

Jan 8, 2010 at 4:11 PM
Edited Jan 8, 2010 at 5:02 PM
Allev wrote:

Well, no.  It does 50% of weapon damage, but it should get 100% chance to proc things like poisons, enh shaman abilities, OoC for ferals, and so on.  This is probably a particularly great trinket for ret pallies and enh shamans since they get so many procs per hit. 

Yeah modeling it as 1/16th a hit every hit in the end will not be accurate at all due to it being able to proc stuff. 

For DW folks the fact that it's 50/50 a MH or OH probably also means it needs a real model not just 1/16th?

Another interesting question....can the 50% swing proc motes of anger?  Interesting mini feedback loop then.  400 swings is 200 procs or 25 hits...which generates 1.5 more hits :P.

Jan 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM
Allev wrote:

Well, no.  It does 50% of weapon damage, but it should get 100% chance to proc things like poisons, enh shaman abilities, OoC for ferals, and so on.  This is probably a particularly great trinket for ret pallies and enh shamans since they get so many procs per hit. 

OoC is only on auto attacks and since the extra swing seems to be yellow, it probably shouldn't proc it. Would need testing probably.

Jan 12, 2010 at 11:03 PM
Edited Jan 12, 2010 at 11:06 PM
Aldriana wrote:
The current theory of this item is as follows:

1) The proc rate is 50%.
2) The attacks generated are yellow attacks but are not normalized.
3) The following things *can* proc Motes:
  • White attacks
  • Yellow strikes, including Sinister Strike, Mutilate, Shiv, Eviscerate, Envenom, Feint, Kick, and the initial application of Rupture.
  • Any weapon specific procs (poisons and Mongoose/Berserking) generated by white attacks.
  • Hack and Slash procs.
4) The following things *cannot* proc motes.
  • Manifest Anger procs (that is, the strikes from the trinket itself).
  • Any procs, from weapons or otherwise, generated from yellow strikes.
  • Any non weapon specific procs (rep rings, trinkets, Combat Potency, etc.)
  • Anything else not explicitly listed as possible.
5) The extra strikes granted by the trinket (Manifest Anger) are performed with whichever weapon generated the first mote of the stack that led to the attack.
6) Manifest Anger can proc any effect that a strike with the appropriate weapon normally can, including Poisons, Weapon enchants, trinkets, Combat Potency, and Focused Attacks.

See http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t83763-proc_items_tiny_abom_black_bruise_updated_1_10_a/

So to properly implement it in this way, seems like quite a challenge still :P

Jan 13, 2010 at 1:40 AM

Number 5 has a strange effect on the model.  If you have a slow MH and fast OH you will more commonly generate OH Manifest Anger swings...

Feb 1, 2010 at 9:17 PM

Old topic, been a few weeks, Rawr close to a model on these and the other new trinkets or still a work in progress?

Feb 1, 2010 at 10:18 PM

I can't speak for others, but I haven't even looked started for DPSWarriors, mostly because it's a terrible trinket for them and nobody's asked for it for dpswarrior yet :P

Mar 2, 2010 at 3:30 PM

Small update on the trinket's behaviour since the procrate nerf for rogues: 50% off all hits with both weapons (Autoattack, weapon strikes, and finishers other than SnD). Swings are yellow hits but cannot proc motes, and the distribution of attacks between hands is in the same proportion as the attacks that generated the motes.