Cat expertise calculations correct?

Topics: Rawr.Cat
Jan 19, 2010 at 3:43 PM
Edited Jan 19, 2010 at 4:05 PM

First of all, from a fellow programmer I want to express my appreciation to all of those that devote time to make rawr what it is.  Kudos.

As to the topic question--

I've recently been pretty annoyed at the apparent lack of hit and expertise choices for gear.  In trying to figure out my best upgrade path it appears (according to rawr) that I almost don't have to care at all about expertise at all. I'm currently using 2 pieces of tier 10 (gloves/chest) along with 2 pieces of tier 9.  Here is my current gear:

Head Runetotem's Headguard of Triumph (i245)
Neck Charge of the Eredar (i258)
Shoulders Runetotem's Shoulderpads of Triumph (i245)
Chest Sanctified Lasherweave Raiment
Waist Belt of the Pitiless Killer (i245)... grrr, 258 needs to drop already!
Legs Legwraps of the Broken Beast (i258)
Feet Icewalker Treads (i258)
Wrist Toskk's Maximized Wristguards
Hands Sanctified Lasherweave Handgrips
Finger1 Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance
Finger2 Saurfang's Cold-Forged Band
Trinket1 Death's Choice (i245)
Trinket2 Deathbringer's Will
Back Cloak of the Untamed Predator (i258)
MainHand Distant Land
Ranged Idol of Mutilation

Which nets me...
Hit Rating: 280
Expertise Rating: 74 (+10 expertise from talents)
Armor Penetration Rating: 827

 

Upon exploring my options for getting the next two pieces of tier 10 it looks like shoulders and helm would be the biggest DPS boost with my current gear.  However, this leaves me with -0- expertise from gear.  Granted, I'll still have the 10 from talents, but I'm still shy of the cap by 132 rating.  It seems odd to me that rawr is telling me that expertise gems over agility and ArP would be a DPS loss with such low expertise rating.

I know hit and expertise for cats isn't as important as other classes/specs, but this just seems a little extreme.

Thanks,
Matt

Jan 19, 2010 at 4:02 PM

I'm sure Astrylian or Gwindor can give a more comprehensive answer, but it's not unheard of that expertise is rated so low.  It's not that it's a bad stat, it's just that other stats are simply better.  Your bleeds aren't affected by expertise, and increasing agi or arp can be point-for-point better once you hit high gear levels (agi increases your crit, which is an exponential gain as your average non-crit per swing increases, so it's not unheard of that it would overtake hit or expertise; arp has a multiplicative effect on your damage which increases as you get more arp rating.  Expertise is multiplicative but linear).

Coordinator
Jan 19, 2010 at 4:39 PM

Yeah, expertise isn't a bad stat, by any stretch. Agi and ArPen are just better. So you'll never want to gem for it, and it's quite possible that gear choices available to you limit how much you have. It does mean, however, that you have to watch for misses in your attacks. If you'd rather that your attacks are completely predictable, you can optimize with an additional requirement of Chance to be Avoided <= 0. Or, do what Gwin does, and do <= 0.1%. If you're in a position where you can't devote all your attention to DPSing (such as if you're raid leading or something), that may be a DPS gain for you.

Jan 19, 2010 at 9:32 PM

One thing that "boosted" the expertise/hit score in DPSWarr was us calculating time/gcds lost due to dodges/misses.  So, if our arms rotation is 24secs long (the duration of a glyphed Rend +3secs), the number of rotations we do is FightDuration / (24 + 1.5f*Rend.HitTable.NotHit), and then the number of GCDs used by MS/Execute is also increased (since you re-use these abilities if they miss or are dodged).  This decreases the number of free GCDs for Slam (our GCD filler), and made expertise appear more attractive.  Of course, for arms, expertise is still a weak stat because of the mechanics of Overpower (activates when you're dodged, cannot be dodged, and is a guaranteed crit).

Does cat do something like this?

Coordinator
Jan 19, 2010 at 9:38 PM
Edited Jan 19, 2010 at 9:39 PM

Yep, it absolutely does. It just isn't as impacting, because we aren't GCD capped, we're energy capped. All you lose is 20% of the energycost of the attack, and 1sec of dot uptime on the dot that missed, if it was a dot.

Jan 20, 2010 at 12:34 PM

Actually, I've started optimizing for <= 0.2% Linked below is a screenshot of what my optimize window looks like.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1069763/optimizersetting.jpg

 

Even if you're not raid leading (like me) the value of not missing a CP generating attack or a finisher while attempting the game's hardest single target rotation is far more valuable then any simulation or model will lead you to believe.  I've ALWAY optimized my gear in such a way that I stay within an acceptable margin of boss avoidance (0.2% feels about right at the moment, its about one special miss per week on bosses)

 

Looking at your gear, however, I've noticed you were in a very similar situation to the one I was in. The T9 helm has Expertise, but the T10 helm does not.  My solution to this was to upgrade my T9 helm to the T10 helm, and upgrade my 258Broken Beast to the T10 Legs at the same time.  This effectively "moved" the expertise from my helm slot, to my leg slot.

The downside was that I had to have 190 frost badges before I purchased any T10.  The upside was that I'm now rocking 2T10(head/pants) and 2T9(shoulders/gloves), and I'm 2 points over hit cap, and 4 points over expertise cap.

Jan 21, 2010 at 1:55 AM
Edited Jan 21, 2010 at 1:57 AM
Gwindor wrote:

Actually, I've started optimizing for <= 0.2% Linked below is a screenshot of what my optimize window looks like.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1069763/optimizersetting.jpg

I've always found that the optimizer does a really terrible job when given limits.  I tend to be able to get much better DPS out of just optimizing with no limit and then playing around with gems and enchants and 1-2 high hit/exp pieces.

This was actually my project this afternoon.  After reading your post and thinking about it I came to the same conclusion you did.  I also lead raids and missing attacks probably is far worse than the model is portraying for me.

I gained a solid 100 DPS over limit-based optimizer runs with the "no limit and tweak" method.  It's a lot more time consuming though.

Coordinator
Jan 21, 2010 at 4:09 AM
khanthal wrote:

I've always found that the optimizer does a really terrible job when given limits.  I tend to be able to get much better DPS out of just optimizing with no limit and then playing around with gems and enchants and 1-2 high hit/exp pieces.

I'm pretty sure this is entirely a perception thing. If you can show any proof to the contrary, we want to see it.

Jan 23, 2010 at 3:50 AM
Edited Jan 23, 2010 at 3:51 AM
Astrylian wrote:
 

I'm pretty sure this is entirely a perception thing. If you can show any proof to the contrary, we want to see it.

I'll guarantee it's not perception as this was my project that entire afternoon, hand optimizing because the optimizer did a demonstrably bad job when I put a limit.

I'll post a issue with my file I've been working with.  I used the exact settings Gwin posted.  The gear Rawr comes up with is not at either cap and ends up 50-100 DPS short of my hand done version.  And my hand done version is even at cap so I could sacrifice some hit and drop to 0.2% avoided and be even higher DPS.

 

 

Jan 23, 2010 at 4:26 AM

http://rawr.codeplex.com/WorkItem/View.aspx?WorkItemId=16059