[Retribution] Itemization seems wrong maybe

Topics: Retired
Oct 14, 2008 at 2:12 PM
Seems something is up w/Ret Pally gear selection.

For example even though im hit capped at 9% hit it still shows Vengance Wrap as better than Cloak of Darkness.  Is this correct?

Or Showing S4 chest better than Hard Khorium Battleplate again this seems wrong to me.  Could it be valuing hit rating to much?
Oct 14, 2008 at 6:17 PM
Edited Oct 14, 2008 at 6:18 PM
I thought on EJ they said that testing showed that Savagery was now better than Mongoose, but the module is showing Mongoose as far superior.  Is that accurate?

Oh and congratz on getting this done so fast.  And kudos on continued great work!

Oct 14, 2008 at 8:09 PM
Rawr is currently using 24 "Melee" Crit Rating for the crafted Cloak of Darkness. If you edit the item to use the generic Crit Rating it will shoot very high on the list of cloaks.

Mongoose is better at 70 but scaling at 80 will put Savagery ahead.
Oct 14, 2008 at 8:19 PM
Well that fixed Cloak but still seems to rate S4 chest as better than Hard Khorium Battleplate, seems something is still systematically wrong maybe.
Oct 14, 2008 at 8:53 PM
Edited Oct 14, 2008 at 8:55 PM
first of all thanks for your great work !

after adding talents I see some "interesting" results, too ... (e.g. stormherald a lot (!) better than the badges axe ... razor scale battlecloak a lot (!) better than Shadowmoon Detroyer´s Drape while not hitcapped). 
Oct 14, 2008 at 9:00 PM
It would be really useful if you would post the character file you were using that you think gives incorrect results.
Oct 15, 2008 at 1:37 AM
I'm honestly not seeing the issues with Hard Khorium breast plate (mine is showing as #2), and other than the cloak from kil'jaeden Shadowmoon Destroyers Cape is a certain 2nd.

My only gripe with the model is the missing buffs that I see in the warrior build but lacking from the paladin.
Oct 15, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Edited Oct 15, 2008 at 1:42 PM
how do i post the xml file?

rakhir i see some very similar issues

another similar but different issue is it shows libram of divine judgment as more dps than avengment even though im using SoB/SotM button, very odd.
Oct 15, 2008 at 4:30 PM
Gmedina, The easiest way is probably just to open it up in a text editor and copy and paste it into the reply.

Destrka, what buffs specifically are missing that you would like to see? 
Oct 15, 2008 at 5:03 PM
Here you go

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Character xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">
  <ActiveBuffs>Strength of Earth Totem</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Enhancing Totems</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Blessing of Might</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Improved Blessing of Might</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Unleashed Rage</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Sanctified Retribution</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Commanding Shout</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Commanding Presence (Health)</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Power Word: Fortitude</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Improved Power Word: Fortitude</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Mark of the Wild</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Improved Mark of the Wild</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Blessing of Kings</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Improved Blessing of Kings</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Sunder Armor</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Faerie Fire</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Flask of Relentless Assault</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>20 Strength Food</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Adamantite Weightstone</ActiveBuffs>
        <string>&lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?&gt;
&lt;CalculationOptionsBear xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema;
        <string>&lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?&gt;
&lt;CalculationOptionsRestoSham xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema;
        <string>&lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?&gt;
&lt;CalculationOptionsHealadin xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema;
        <string>&lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?&gt;
&lt;CalculationOptionsRetribution xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema;
  <OptimizationRequirements />
Oct 15, 2008 at 7:44 PM
here is another odd thing

if you add Lightbringer Breastplate w/3 red +10 Str it rates it as way lower than same chest w/3 that match socket colors?????  The socket bonus for it isn't that good.

Also this might be right but why is executioner showing as no dps?  is this right or just a typo?
Oct 15, 2008 at 11:03 PM
That is most likely because you no longer meet the requirements for your meta gem.
Oct 16, 2008 at 1:29 AM
I don't know how it is set up for you, but I am not getting any issues you describe with some items being much better. I see badge axe being slightly better then Stormherald, and Shadowmoon Destroyers Drape slightly better then Razor Scale Battlecloak. Make sure you have all appropriate buffs and talent points sets.
Oct 16, 2008 at 1:00 PM
Both the enchant executioner and darkmoon card crusade are showing up as zero dps. I do find certain things a little strange, for instance how the shattered sun dps neck with scryers is better than the pendant of the perilous. and how str>hit even if not hit capped, regarding gems.
Oct 16, 2008 at 1:28 PM
Edited Oct 16, 2008 at 4:03 PM

Try adding a new Hard Khorium Battleplate and but 3 red +10str gems and let me know if that shows up below s4 or above it?. 
And indeed you were correct i didn't meet my meta gem requirements, forgot it is 2 of each not just blue. But even after that it still show S4 chest as better???  Is this wrong?

Seems that armor penetration is showing 0 dps increase, i would expect this isn't right but not sure if all the other buffs provided have pushed us over the cap, any ideas on how to check?

Hope this helps but found a few odd things in the new version.

In 2.0.2 the libram slot isn't registering anything (edit. seems the librams don't have their values in them, just add em and it works)

Now that the hit rating is the same for spell and melee, could you add the shaman aura as a buff?

Oct 16, 2008 at 6:01 PM
Edited Oct 16, 2008 at 6:05 PM
Bunyipee, are you sure that Strength being better then Hit is wrong? Strength provides more AP now (15% Divine Strength buff), gets multiplied a lot more on Special Crits, and gives spell power (which increases Judgement damage). Hit isnt really didn't get any better with the patch. You might want to check with another theorycrafting tool (like a spreadsheet) and see if it gives different results. Though this will all change when the new changes that nerf +crit damage a lot goes through. I'll pass the bug for Executioner and Darkmoon Card not working along to Zurm.

Gmedina, I'll try adding those items later today, I'm on my Mac laptop atm. Armor Penetration isn't working curretly either, I think part of it is because of Armory not returning the right value and part the module not implementing it right. The Armory issue was fixed in 2.0.2 so check again and see if it is better. Sounds like your Libram issue is just an Armory parsing issue, there tooltips prolly got changed slighty, I'll look into it.

What aura are you talking about, Totem of Wrath? That doesn't give +hit anymore.
Oct 16, 2008 at 6:19 PM
By shaman aura, he meant the Draenei racial +1% hit to party.
Oct 16, 2008 at 6:23 PM
Yes sorry my stupidity regarding the strength. Too much work today and completely forgot about it.
Oct 16, 2008 at 7:00 PM
1) what nerf to crit damage is going to happen??

2) The armor penetration is still not working.  You can check this by equiping the ring Angelista's Revenge, and if you remove the penetration it has the exact same dps.  So for some reason it doesn't include the penetration in the calculation of its dps, this may not be a bug if all the buff from the raid push you over the armor cap.  Just not sure how to check if that is the case or if this is a bug.

3) Sorry as Astrylian said i was refering to the draenei racial aura.

4) Also the libram of divine judgement is showing up as a dps bonus even when you select SoB/SotM

5) i was able to fix the DMC:C by simply adding 120 AP and 80 SP to it's stats.

If i can find anything else ill keep you updated.

Oct 16, 2008 at 7:31 PM
Oct 16, 2008 at 7:36 PM
cant read it at work any chance you can post what it says?
Oct 16, 2008 at 7:49 PM
"As I stated yesterday, we are happy with Ret's PvE damage and sustatined damage in PvP, but were concerned that the burst damage in PvP could be too high. We discussed this for literally hours yesterday, which was certainly not the first time we have discussed the issue. Thus I hope these changes are not perceived as a knee-jerk reaction, but I am sure that will depend a great deal on which class you play. :)

Divine Storm -- the damage was changed from Holy to Physical. As you know, Holy damage is almost never mitigated and this talent could pack a lot into a very short time. This is a nerf to the ability's damage. This change is now active on Live.

Repentance -- this ability now lasts for only 6 seconds in PvP (down from 10). Obviously this is also a nerf. This change is also active on Live.

Art of War -- now affects all damage done by Judgements, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm (instead of critical strike damage). Net dps should be about the same but less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.

Righteous Vengeance -- now applies a dot affect similar to Deep Wounds (instead of critical strike damage). This ends up being a significant buff to the ability to make up for the damage lost to Divine Storm, but is also less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13. EDIT: The dot will NOT break Repentance.

Glyph of Crusader Strike -- now reduces mana cost (instead of increased damage on stunned targets.) We thought paladins could stack too much damage vs. stunned targets. This change will be made before Nov 13.

We also fixed a bug with Seal and Judgement of Light that could sometimes result in too much healing.

In our tests, Retribution dps remains the same over longer periods of time, but they can't do quite so much damage in the initial few seconds of a PvP encounter.

I know Ret pallies feel a little picked on since we've made this mistake before of having them come out the gate too strong and then had to correct them. For that I do apologize. It's a difficult spec to balance since part of its design is to have large crits and stuns, which have obvious PvP implications. We are pretty confident this will not nerf pallies into the ground as I facetiously promised yesterday, but if we overdid it, we'll be happy to back off some of the changes.

On the other hand, maybe we'll see fewer BGs with 20 paladins on the opposing side and can get some reasonable feedback on all the other classes in the game.

EDIT: To clairfy the new dot will not break Repentance."
Oct 16, 2008 at 7:56 PM
First thanks

The change to Righteous Vengeance im not following, what does deep wounds do?

Sigh i guess i better enjoy being top dps while i can.
Oct 20, 2008 at 1:32 PM
any furthur updates on this available?