Haste cap for Shadow Priest?

Topics: Rawr.ShadowPriest
Dec 16, 2008 at 4:35 AM
It looks like the Rawr model for Shadow Priest thinks there is a haste cap somewhere around 10%.  Now that I've added more haste than that, it has dropped the value of haste to zero, and shows the GCD as 1.35 (when it should be lower given I think I have haste ~12%).

Is this cap really in the game?  I couldn't find any reference to it but maybe I'm just behind.  I had been under the impression there is no haste cap.
Dec 16, 2008 at 6:33 AM
It sounds like you are going fully OOM after that value.  Can you set the fight length to 1 minute and see what happens?  (The model should overvalue haste at that point since very few spriests can go oom after 60 seconds.)

Developer
Dec 16, 2008 at 6:52 AM

If you mouseover the tooltip of Rotation, you will see how long it estimates before Rotation resets. Sometimes it is unable to properly figure out a good Rotation and mess up haste badly, I  have been working on a fix for this for a long while, but not found a satisfactory solution yet. Thats also why I added the Haste Rating Gain chart under Charts -> Haste Rating Gain (All the way at the bottom). If it doesn't list 99 at top and down to 0 at bottom, you should be careful about its haste evaluation.

Also there is the issue of sustainability, which changes value of haste dramatically.

Dec 16, 2008 at 9:05 AM
Thanks for the replies!

Reducing the fight duration to 4 / 3 / 2 / 1 minute all had no effect - haste remained at zero worth (and I'm sure I'm not OOM at 60 seconds!).

Rotation is 74 seconds.  Haste rating chart shows positive contribute for haste ratings of 70-99, and 1-8, but nothing in between.

So I guess for now just assume my current gear / settings fall victim to a bug?  Maybe it'll go away with my next gear upgrade?  Anything else I should try meanwhile?
Developer
Dec 16, 2008 at 10:16 AM
Edited Dec 16, 2008 at 10:17 AM

There is also a 3rd alternative, which is that you have hit a haste plateu, a point where haste does not give any meaningful increase in dps until you hit a certain limit. With a 74s rotation (very short), it may be likely that you basically need 70+ haste rating before it has any impact on your dps.

If anything, I might be better able to pinpoint any problem with your Character file.

Dec 16, 2008 at 11:02 PM
Thanks TNSe.  I can't attach my character file right now but will do so when I get home.

re: possibly being at a "haste plateu" - while I understand the concept, I'm not sure that's something that should be factored into evaluating the value of 1 point of haste.  Clearly, a single point of haste is unlikely to be noticeable except over a very long fight.  But the problem is this value for "1 haste" is then multiplied by much larger amounts of haste to be found in the next 1,2, or more upgrades.  Right now Rawr is essentially telling me that +500 haste would make zero contribution to my dps, because it is multiplying 500 haste * zero value and getting zero.  That can't be right.

I would argue that items should be valued based even on partial contributions towards getting to the next "plateau", except for possibly the single case where you are asking Rawr to optimize among your current gear so you know what to wear right now.  Once you're looking to the future for upgrades, there will always be additional upgrades to come, so haste that doesn't matter in the first upgrade will matter once its joined by the 2nd (or more).

Separately - Is the rotation length important in itself, or is it really fight length that matters?  Ie if a lazy mage had a "rotation" that consisted of just spamming fireballs, would he have a 3 second rotation that therefore would never benefit from haste?  
  
Dec 17, 2008 at 12:42 AM
Shadow priests are known to have an extremely long and easy-to-reach haste plateau, because Mind Flay has a fairly long base cast time. Everything I've read suggests that you want the right amount of haste to stick a nice round number of GCDs or Mind Flays in between Mind Blast cooldowns; less haste than this means you don't get MB as often as you should, more haste means you're sitting around pointlessly waiting for MB to come back up (until you get so much haste that it's worth it to shove another spell in, but this is a lot of haste, we're talking 1000+ here). Since this means you have to shove 6 seconds worth of spells into 5.5 seconds of cooldown, shadow priests benefit from about 9.09% haste and that's it, so haste rating beyond about 300 just doesn't help shadow priests noticeably. Now obviously this issue is slightly more complicated than I'm making it sound, but.... not much, because 3s of Mind Flay exactly covers two 1.5s GCDs and shadow priests don't have any goofy-length casts (like 2s), so the average shadow rotation goes approximately MB-MF-MF with one of the MFs sometimes exactly replaced by two short spells (DP, SW:D, VE, VT, SW:P if it dropped off for some reason).

I would argue against valuing stats at a "plateau", to be honest. Plateaux are particularly common with the interaction between haste rating and cooldowns, so I'm going to use that as the narrative example here. Unless you can actually get SO MUCH more haste rating that you reach the next plateau or otherwise meaningfully change your rotation, haste is simply not helping you. I wouldn't want Rawr to recommend more of it. With current gear the 5:1 plateau for shadow priests (where you shove 7.5 seconds worth of spells into a MB cooldown) is completely unreachable: assuming I did the calculation right it's 1192 haste rating, by which point I'm pretty sure spellpower scaling differentials between your spells renders the whole Mind-Blast-cooldown theory obsolete, because Mind Flay's effective spellpower coefficient is a lot higher than most other spells. So I would want Rawr to make sure I stay at the 4:1 plateau without going over more than absolutely necessary.

I may, of course, be talking out my ass. I play a rogue and an elemental shaman. But I read a lot.
Developer
Dec 17, 2008 at 1:03 AM

You are sorta right Brucek2. 0*500 is 0. But Rawr is not really meant to be judged just by the Stat Values chart. You have to remember that it also rates pieces of gear up against eachother, and on top of that it has a gear optimizer that it sets together the best gear from what you have available. This is also why I added the Haste Rating Chart. So you can see when haste starts becoming more useful again.

Zahariel, yes, the Plateus may be brutal, but so far I have not seen any large obvious plateus (until maybe what Bruce2k got). Things get swapped around very frequently in the rotation due to how the priority system works, and this means Haste is mostly scaling all the way. I plan to implement "smart" SW:Death soon, which basically puts in a SW:D only when a Mind Flay will not run its full duration. SW:D is such a minor upgrade in DPS over Mind Flay normally, that using SW:D instead of a clipped Mind Flay is better. (Clipping Mind Flay is in general a bad idea now). Also I plan to pull Devouring Plague out of the rotation, because of its extremely long cooldown makes it hard to make a quick rotation. (Will improve haste evaluation)

Anyway, keep asking me questions in case I miss something. (And yes, Glyphs ARE coming).

And yes, there seems to be a bug with Hit Calculations IF you don't check off Misery in the Buffs tab, I'll look into that.

Dec 17, 2008 at 8:19 AM
Fascinating discussion (at least for me).  Thanks for the illuminating comments and exposing me to some new ideas.

So sure enough, I did get a new item tonight - the Valorous Raiments of Faith - and when I switch to it from the Spellweave Robe, haste is back to having value.

I'll post the character file below in case its helpful.
Dec 17, 2008 at 8:20 AM
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Character xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">
  <Name>Character</Name>
  <Realm>Realm</Realm>
  <Region>US</Region>
  <Race>Dwarf</Race>
  <Class>Priest</Class>
  <ActiveBuffs>Blood Pact</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Arcane Intellect</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Mana Spring Totem</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Blessing of Wisdom</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Improved Blessing of Wisdom</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Moonkin Form</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Flametongue Totem</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Fel Intelligence (Spirit)</ActiveBuffs>
  <ActiveBuffs>Improved Felhunter</ActiveBuffs>
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  <CalculationOptions>
    <item>
      <key>
        <string>ShadowPriest</string>
      </key>
      <value>
        <string>&lt;?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?&gt;
&lt;CalculationOptionsShadowPriest xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"&gt;
  &lt;TargetLevel&gt;3&lt;/TargetLevel&gt;
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&lt;/CalculationOptionsShadowPriest&gt;</string>
      </value>
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  &lt;TargetArmor&gt;13083&lt;/TargetArmor&gt;
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&lt;/CalculationOptionsBear&gt;</string>
      </value>
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        <string>HolyPriest</string>
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  &lt;Rotation&gt;0&lt;/Rotation&gt;
  &lt;FSRRatio&gt;85&lt;/FSRRatio&gt;
  &lt;FightLength&gt;5&lt;/FightLength&gt;
  &lt;Serendipity&gt;75&lt;/Serendipity&gt;
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  &lt;Survivability&gt;5&lt;/Survivability&gt;
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  &lt;TestOfFaith&gt;25&lt;/TestOfFaith&gt;
  &lt;ModelProcs&gt;true&lt;/ModelProcs&gt;
&lt;/CalculationOptionsPriest&gt;</string>
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Developer
Apr 29, 2009 at 5:50 PM
The issue I reported here might be related:

http://rawr.codeplex.com/WorkItem/View.aspx?WorkItemId=13107

It may be worse than a haste plateau -- it looks like you can get to a point where the model thinks that your dps would be *lower* with additional haste (where a plateau implies that one more point wouldn't make a difference).