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Expertise and parry-hasting

Topics: Rawr.Bear
Jan 2, 2010 at 7:36 PM

After spending a significant time with Rawr (Bear), and evaluating various gear choices, it seems to me that the current model is very much in love with expertise up to the parry cap at the expense of other stats...

It's always nice when Rawr agrees with my gut feel, but this doesn't feel quite right, and so i have a question :)

(and please let me thank everyone in advance for the education and the hard work you have put in on an excellent program)

is the current model counting parry-hasting by the boss? my guess is that expertise is being over-valued in the current model on the basis of being both a threat and mitigation stat.

I noticed when gemming that the Precise Cardinal Ruby was ranked above other gems for its impact on both mitigation and threat. I tested this by equipping items like the Frostbitten Fur Boots with 0 gems (Superior Agility enchant) and noting a base mitigation of 15,471.83. Adding 40 agility through gems gave a mitigation of 16,872.58 or 35.02/agi. Removing the agi gems and adding 40 expertise thru gems gave a mitigation of 16,281.03 or 34.66/exp.

if parry hasting exists, then expertise is a mitigation stat. If not, it should be purely a threat stat?

my understanding is that parry-hasting has been removed in most, if not all, boss fights (even in ICC) - as seen below - and should therefore be a threat only stat (i'm perfectly willing to be wrong here :) ) :

[18:27:11.648] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) Parry
[18:27:12.528] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) Miss
[18:27:13.536] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) 9746 (A: 7697)
[18:27:14.645] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) Parry
[18:27:15.877] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) 13656 (A: 3749)
[18:27:17.484] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) 16061 (B: 1895)
[18:27:18.716] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) Parry
[18:27:20.261] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash  (Tank) 14769 (B: 1895)
[18:27:22.367] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash  (Tank) Parry
[18:27:23.537] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash  (Tank) Parry
[18:27:25.098] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash  (Tank) 5848 (A: 7881, B: 1895)
[18:27:25.961] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash  (Tank) Parry
[18:27:30.874] Lord Marrowgar Saber Lash  (Tank) Dodge

[18:28:19.868] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) 13901 (A: 3816)
[18:28:20.949] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) 16084 (B: 1895)
[18:28:22.444] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) 16012 (A: 841)
[18:28:23.703] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) Miss
[18:28:24.927] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) Miss 

[18:29:55.208] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) Miss
[18:29:57.673] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) 11611 (A: 3873, B: 1895)
[18:29:58.858] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) 15881 (B: 1895)
[18:30:00.168] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) Miss
[18:30:02.316] Lord Marrowgar hits  (Tank) 17082

the swing timer does not appear to reset. and also here:

[20:43:27.868] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) 7615 (A: 7508)
[20:43:27.944] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) 14811
[20:43:28.068] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) 15166
[20:43:28.240] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) Parry
[20:43:29.285] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) 10899 (B: 1895)
[20:43:30.352] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) 12585
[20:43:31.485] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) Dodge
[20:43:32.625] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) 9819 (A: 1752, B: 1895)
[20:43:33.840] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) 7589 (A: 4118, B: 1895)
[20:43:35.032] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) Miss
[20:43:36.234] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) Miss
[20:43:37.413] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) 11406 (B: 1895)
[20:43:38.520] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) Parry
[20:43:39.924] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) 11525
[20:43:40.953] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) Dodge
[20:43:42.372] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) Dodge
[20:43:43.506] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) Absorb (9917)
[20:43:44.572] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) Dodge
[20:43:45.742] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) 7126 (A: 3019, B: 1895)
[20:43:46.990] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) 11664
[20:43:48.207] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) Parry
[20:43:49.475] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) Parry
[20:43:50.798] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank) 6588 (A: 3818, B: 1895)

thank you again for an excellent program and very valuable tool. i appreciate your response.

Jan 2, 2010 at 7:45 PM

There's an option on the Options tab, to choose whether the boss parry hastes or not. If checked, then Expertise appropriately reduces the damage you take by preventing parry hastes. Also, your logs don't show anything one way or another about parry haste; the boss gains parry haste after he parries one of your attacks, not after he gets parried.

Jan 2, 2010 at 9:14 PM

found the option, thank you :)

and about the log...

/blush (mumbles indistinctly - just bought this account on ebay... noob... apologies)

these may be better? also, why the 10k armor default for bosses? i remember hearing about 13,083 for maexxna from beast lore and hadn't heard a lot since... i'm guessing you have access to a link i don't know about.

Again, thank you for the response and time. best regards.

[20:43:29.285] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) 10899 (B: 1895)
[20:43:29.301] (Tank A) hits Deathbringer Saurfang 477
[20:43:29.316] (Tank A) Shield of Righteousness Deathbringer Saurfang 3542 (R: 348)
[20:43:29.316] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 420
[20:43:29.332] Deathbringer Saurfang's Holy Vengeance is refreshed by (Tank A)
[20:43:29.332] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 364 (R: 36)
[20:43:29.550] (Tank A) Holy Shield Deathbringer Saurfang 1235
[20:43:29.550] (Tank A) Thorns Deathbringer Saurfang Resist
[20:43:29.637] (Tank A) Holy Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 1035
[20:43:30.049] Deathbringer Saurfang's Vindication is refreshed by (Tank A)

[20:43:30.352] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) 12585
[20:43:30.361] (Tank A) Holy Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang Parry
[20:43:30.361] (Tank A) crits Deathbringer Saurfang *1547*
[20:43:30.502] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 418
[20:43:30.892] (Tank A) Thorns Deathbringer Saurfang 288
[20:43:30.907] Deathbringer Saurfang afflicted by Consecration from (Tank A)
[20:43:31.485] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) Dodge
[20:43:31.656] (Tank A) hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry

[20:43:31.828] (Tank A) Consecration Deathbringer Saurfang 560
[20:43:31.927] (Tank A) casts Hammer of the Righteous on Deathbringer Saurfang
[20:43:31.999] Deathbringer Saurfang's Holy Vengeance is refreshed by (Tank A)
[20:43:31.999] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 309 (R: 69)
[20:43:32.015] (Tank A) Hammer of the Righteous Deathbringer Saurfang 3011 (R: 296)
[20:43:32.625] (Tank A) Holy Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 931 (R: 92)
[20:43:32.625] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) 9819 (A: 1752, B: 1895)


[20:44:02.608] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) 2458 (A: 9482)
[20:44:02.608] (Tank A) Holy Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 698 (R: 155)
[20:44:03.373] (Tank B) casts Shield Slam on Deathbringer Saurfang
[20:44:03.373] (Tank B) Shield Slam Deathbringer Saurfang Parry
[20:44:03.471] (Tank A) Thorns Deathbringer Saurfang 240
[20:44:03.681] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) Parry
[20:44:03.729] Deathbringer Saurfang Rune of Blood (Tank A) 1921 (A: 3861)
[20:44:03.961] (Tank A) hits Deathbringer Saurfang 422
[20:44:03.961] (Tank B) casts Heroic Strike on Deathbringer Saurfang
[20:44:03.961] (Tank B) Heroic Strike Deathbringer Saurfang Parry
[20:44:04.321] Deathbringer Saurfang's Holy Vengeance is refreshed by (Tank A)
[20:44:04.321] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 311 (R: 31)
[20:44:04.617] (Tank A) casts Judgement of Light on Deathbringer Saurfang
[20:44:04.899] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) 11756


[20:44:14.523] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) 13734 (B: 1895)
[20:44:14.648] (Tank A) Holy Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 869
[20:44:14.811] (Tank B) casts Shield Slam on Deathbringer Saurfang
[20:44:15.021] Deathbringer Saurfang afflicted by Vindication from (Tank A)
[20:44:15.038] (Tank A) Thorns Deathbringer Saurfang 216
[20:44:15.071] (Tank B) Shield Slam Deathbringer Saurfang 2362
[20:44:15.165] Deathbringer Saurfang's Hand of Reckoning fades
[20:44:15.165] (Tank B) hits Deathbringer Saurfang 523
[20:44:15.521] (Tank A) crits Deathbringer Saurfang *1122*
[20:44:15.679] (Tank A) casts Judgement of Light on Deathbringer Saurfang
[20:44:15.679] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) Dodge
[20:44:15.928] Deathbringer Saurfang's Holy Vengeance is refreshed by (Tank A)
[20:44:15.942] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 288 (R: 28)
[20:44:16.242] Deathbringer Saurfang's Judgements of the Just fades
[20:44:16.242] Deathbringer Saurfang's Judgement of Light is refreshed by (Tank A)
[20:44:16.256] (Tank A) Judgement of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 1720 (R: 169)
[20:44:16.501] (Tank B) hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry
[20:44:16.715] (Tank A) crits Deathbringer Saurfang *1234*
[20:44:16.894] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) 9432 (A: 3818)
[20:44:16.956] Deathbringer Saurfang afflicted by Judgements of the Just from (Tank A)
[20:44:16.956] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 296 (R: 29)
[20:44:17.041] Deathbringer Saurfang's Holy Vengeance is refreshed by (Tank A)
[20:44:17.041] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 255 (R: 56)
[20:44:17.502] (Tank A) Thorns Deathbringer Saurfang 191
[20:44:17.710] (Tank A) Holy Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 869
[20:44:17.724] (Tank B) hits Deathbringer Saurfang 555
[20:44:17.724] (Tank A) casts Shield of Righteousness on Deathbringer Saurfang
[20:44:17.892] (Tank A) Shield of Righteousness Deathbringer Saurfang 2952 (R: 290)
[20:44:17.892] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang *669*
[20:44:18.064] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) Dodge
[20:44:18.282] (Tank B) casts Devastate on Deathbringer Saurfang
[20:44:18.282] (Tank A) Holy Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang Miss
[20:44:18.282] (Tank A) crits Deathbringer Saurfang *1113*
[20:44:18.610] Deathbringer Saurfang's Sunder Armor is refreshed by (Tank B)
[20:44:18.610] (Tank B) Devastate Deathbringer Saurfang 1787
[20:44:18.610] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang *687*
[20:44:18.931] (Tank B) hits Deathbringer Saurfang 536
[20:44:19.281] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) 12169
[20:44:19.422] (Tank A) casts Hammer of the Righteous on Deathbringer Saurfang
[20:44:19.502] Deathbringer Saurfang's Holy Vengeance is refreshed by (Tank A)
[20:44:19.502] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 376
[20:44:19.515] (Tank A) Hammer of the Righteous Deathbringer Saurfang 2789
[20:44:19.611] (Tank A) crits Deathbringer Saurfang *1208*
[20:44:19.844] (Tank A) Thorns Deathbringer Saurfang 240
[20:44:19.876] Deathbringer Saurfang's Holy Vengeance is refreshed by (Tank A)
[20:44:19.876] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang *607* (R: 30)
[20:44:20.185] Deathbringer Saurfang's Vindication is refreshed by (Tank A)
[20:44:20.279] (Tank B) hits Deathbringer Saurfang Parry
[20:44:20.537] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) Parry

[20:44:20.703] (Tank A) Holy Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 872
[20:44:20.717] (Tank A) hits Deathbringer Saurfang 575
[20:44:21.074] Deathbringer Saurfang's Holy Vengeance is refreshed by (Tank A)
[20:44:21.074] (Tank A) Seal of Vengeance Deathbringer Saurfang 322
[20:44:21.620] (Tank B) hits Deathbringer Saurfang 635 (B: 76)
[20:44:21.724] Deathbringer Saurfang hits (Tank A) 12075
[20:44:21.730] Deathbringer Saurfang's Vindication is refreshed by (Tank A)
[20:44:21.983] (Tank A) hits Deathbringer Saurfang 490 (B: 76)

Jan 2, 2010 at 9:31 PM

"my understanding is that parry-hasting has been removed in most, if not all, boss fights (even in ICC) - as seen below - and should therefore be a threat only stat"

Parry-hasting is often removed from two kinds of fights: the first, where melee hits are strong enough individually to kill a tank in two hits, and two hits within X.X seconds is unintended; and the second, where multiple targets stand in front of the tank on purpose.  Saurfang has the potential to be in the first category (and due to strategy, is often in the second); Marrowgar is firmly in the second because of his saber lash mechanic.  

While parry haste may not be relevant on those two bosses, that doesn't mean it's removed from the game.  

Jan 2, 2010 at 9:37 PM

thank you for the insights!

i'll make sure and keep an eye out :)

Jan 2, 2010 at 9:41 PM

 The default armor is 10643, because that's how much armor all known WotLK bosses have. There's virtually no reason to change that, as a user, but it's left there if you want to mess with things.

Jan 2, 2010 at 10:22 PM

ah good to know... i was going off very old stuff:

and hadn't seen that it had changed.

hehe... probly need to l2 do my own testing, but they had included the target dummies :)